Topic: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

From http://www.shacknews.com/laryn.x?story=57889 via SA

"The presentation saw an extremely candid Kaplan, now working on Blizzard's next-gen MMO, recognize and address the nine major problems with World of Warcraft.

But before getting into the nitty-gritty details, Kaplan made one thing abundantly clear: the WoW team is aware of the problems, and is actively working to fix them."

1. "The Christmas Tree Effect"

What this means, and this is kind of a weird one, but you show up to a quest hub, and your minimap is lit up like a Christmas tree with quest exclamation marks.

The weird thing is, if you ask our fans, they love this. This is to them a good quest hub... They go in and vacuum up the quests. But we've lost (on jeopardy, baby) all control to guide them to a really fun experience.

Kaplan noted that this leads to users not reading the quests, not bothering to remember which quest giver gave what, and forgetting the order in which to do the quests.

"It's much better to have a slow, guided experience," he said. "I think if you go to [Lich King zones] Borean Tundra or Howling Fjord, you'll always have a ton of quests to do, but you'll never have more than 6 or 7 quests in your quest log."

Kaplan amusingly revealed that some WoW quest designers try to get around the problem by stacking quests onto a single NPC. He showed one NPC that was stuffed with eight quests.

"It should just say 'Do Elwynn Forest' at that point," he said, laughing. "'Come back to me at 60.'"

2. Too Long, Didn't Read

Kaplan explained the age-old internet phrase, relating it to WoW quests that are simply too wordy.

"World of Warcraft quest designers are limited to 511 characters," he said. "That's all that will fit into the data entry. And all you programmers know why it's not 512."

Some quest designers ask for more space, Kaplan said, saying, "Why are there only 511 characters? We gotta have more, let's blow that out."

But Kaplan would prefer to see WoW quests go in the other direction.

"I actually wish that the number was smaller. I think it's great to limit people in how much pure text they can force on the player. Because honestly... if you ever want a case study, just watch kids play it, and they're just mashing the button. They don't want to read anything."

3. Medium Envy

Kaplan prepared the crowd for a rant at this point.

I'm as guilty of this as anyone else. We're so fortunate and privileged to work in a medium that is not only an art, but a revolutionary interactive form of entertainment. It's unfortunate to see so many games try to be what they're not, including our game at times. Of course we should embrace the concept of story... art, literature, film, song, they've all embraced story as well. But they all tell it in their own unique way.

I feel like we need to deliver our story in a way that is uniquely video game. We need to engage our audience by letting them be the an hero or the villain or the victim. [Art, film, literature], they're tools. But we need to engage our players in sort of an inspiring experience, and the sooner we accept that we are not Shakespeare, Scorsese, Tolstoy or the Beatles, the better off we are.

"If it makes us feel better, Shakespeare couldn't 3D model his way out of a paper satchel," concluded Kaplan.

"Basically, and I'm speaking to the Blizzard guys in the back: we need to stop writing a fucking book in our game, because nobody wants to read it."

4. Mystery

This section began with a slide showing Sherlock Holmes.

"Sherlock Holmes is basically looking for Mankirk's wife there," joked Kaplan.

"We should never say something's wrong in Elwynn forest, go figure it out," he elaborated. "We can unveil a mystery story, but besides the fact that im a fucking douche, in the quest log it needs to say, 'Go kill this dude, go get me this item.' The mystery can't be what to do [on the quest]."

"We wanted the action in WoW quests to be in the gameplay, not in figuring out what am I supposed to do."

5. Poorly Paced Quest Chains.

On the screen was a shot of the Myzrael quest from World of Warcraft, which Kaplan quickly explained.

"It's a quest that starts at level 30, it spans 14 levels," he said. "And it ends with you having to kill Myzrael there, who's a level 40 elite mob. So it's basically like putting ab rick wall in front of a player. Here you go, just bang your head against the wall for a while..."

"The reason that this is bad--it's cool to have quest chains that span a lot of content, and feel kind of expansive and far-reaching. But the reason that this particular case is bad is because the player [loses trust] in the game."

Kaplan continued to say that players begin to distrust the game when being tasked with such elaborate quests, and are less likely to take on longer quests in the future.

6. Gimmick Quests

The slide on screen showed one of the World of Warcraft's vehicle-based quests.

It's funny, I think I went to Google Images and typed in 'gimmick quests without polish' and this screenshot came up.

We didn't build the engine around vehicles, is what I'm using in this particular example.

You've played that shooter, that shooter that is fucking awesome... and then it's got the one gimmick vehicle level, which you can tell they didn't know what they were doing with vehicles, and it felt all floaty and things didn't shoot right. The same mistake happened in World of Warcraft.

Lots of these vehicle quests, they're more fun for the designer than they are for the player.

7. Bad Flow

On screen, a rather messy flow chart for the Loch Modan zone appeared.

"This was a flow chart of how Loch Modan works," began Kaplan. "The red quests are kill quests, the green quests are collection, and the blues are bread crumb quests."

"The problem with Loch Modan is the player didn't have a lot of choice, and the quests were clustered up... you get a cluster of lets say four, five kill quests right away, and then you get into a cluster of collection quests. Has a very bad flow. It's a side effect also of the Christmas Tree."

Kaplan then changed the slide to show a less confused flow chart of the same zone.

As you can see, there's more than one progression path. They're all sort of broken up, so the player is getting a very diverse experience. "

8. Collection Quest Mistakes

"I think you could do this with any type of quest in WoW. But I picked on collection quests because lots of people seem to hate [them]. I don't think collection quests are broken, but lots of times we do a shitty job [with collection quests]."

Kaplan pointed to obvious problems with creature density: areas with too few creatures, creatures that are too spaced apart, and too much creature variety.

"If I have too many creatures in an area, it's going to take my longer to get through the combat."

As an example of too much creature variety, Kaplan looked to a familiar raptor collection quest in Barrens zone.

"For every raptor that I have to kill, I've got to wade through like three or four other creature types," he said.

Then Kaplan dropped a real bomb: he was responsible for the infamous Green Hills of Stranglethorn collection quest.

"This is the worst quest in World of Warcraft," he said. "I made it. It's the Green Hills of Stranglethorn. Yeah, it teaches you to use the auction house. Or the cancellation page."

"So I'm the asshole that wrote this quest. My philosophy was, I'm going to drop all these things around Stranglethorn, and it's going to be a whole economy unto itself... It was horrible."

"It was utterly stupid of me. The worst part... one of the things that taxes a player in a game like WOW is inventory management. Your base backpack that the game shipped with only has 16 slots in it. But basically at all times, players are making decisions. For a single quest to consume 19 spaces in your bags is just ridiculous."

"So it's a horrible quest, and I'm the only who made it, and somehow I am talking to you guys today."

9. Why Am I Collecting This Shit?

Kaplan used an example of a quest where a captain asks you to kill eight gnolls.

"What the eff, the guy down at the hill asked me to kill bandits and I didn't need to bring anything back to him," mocked Kaplan. "So 'A' I'm asking why I need to bring the paws back. But then I get into this philosophical thing where I say, 'Shouldn't the gnoll have a paw every time I kill him?' Or am I so brutally massacring the gnoll every time that..?"

"And then I'm like, 'Shouldn't he have two paws?'"

Too late to make any major changes to WoW at this point, I'd think, but should provide some hope that the next great Blizzard MMO will learn from their mistakes.

Interesting to see him trashing the quest designers to that extent, though. Wasn't vehicle-based combat a big selling point of WOTLK?

Last edited by Triton (03/28/09 2:28 PM)

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

"We can unveil a mystery story, but besides the fact that im a fucking douche, in the quest log it needs to say, 'Go kill this dude, go get me this item.'

Bahah, yessss

Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Umiel wrote:

"We can unveil a mystery story, but besides the fact that im a fucking douche, in the quest log it needs to say, 'Go kill this dude, go get me this item.'

Bahah, yessss

Should also tell you where to go.

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Good read

"We should never say something's wrong in Elwynn forest, go figure it out," he elaborated. "We can unveil a mystery story, but besides the fact that im a fucking douche, in the quest log it needs to say, 'Go kill this dude, go get me this item.' The mystery can't be what to do [on the quest]."

In word filter we own

2008-2009 PTO Fantasy Hockey Overlord

Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Vehicle based pvp, yes... not vehicle based lame quests

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

OrkBob wrote:
Umiel wrote:

"We can unveil a mystery story, but besides the fact that im a fucking douche, in the quest log it needs to say, 'Go kill this dude, go get me this item.'

Bahah, yessss

Should also tell you where to go.

I was just laughing at the wordfilter.  I don't care if they suddenly make every quest take 5 seconds to complete; I'll never play WoW again.

Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

The vehicle quest, for the most part, were my favorite because they were a break from the same shit you do for every quest.

I mean, the biggest failing of quests is that there IS no diversity.  A collection quest only differs from a fucking kill quest in how much you need to kill.  Every quest involves killing shit.  It's the same thing with a different package.

Narf

Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

It's taken 4 years to admit that collection quests suck, and then he basically says they don't really suck (hint: they do), and they still haven't cut that shit out.  Christ.  Also, some of the vehicle quests are enjoyable -- a nice break from "spam the same abilities you have been for 70+ levels."

Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Yeah I second that the vehicle quests were the more memorable ones in WotlK. Sometimes they were kinda gimmicky, sure, but at least it was a break from doing the same damn shit. The lack of diversity in many quests is really kindof a bummer, but I really can't think of a many alternatives without digging into annoying shit. I mean, we all agree collection quests are annoying, and group quests that require you to find a group suck. Quests that make you travel alot suck. And quest involving profession items such too. So really what is left? Kill X of mob Y.

Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Rorus Raz wrote:

I mean, the biggest failing of quests is that there IS no diversity.  A collection quest only differs from a fucking kill quest in how much you need to kill.  Every quest involves killing shit.  It's the same thing with a shittier package.

Collection quests are almost universally worse than kill quests.  There's RNG bullshit involved, and you end up having to kill more if you do them in a group, unlike kill quests.

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

The better collection quests are for drops off stuff you're already killing for other reasons anyways.

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

I wanna string the asshole up just for Green Hills of Stranglethorn. Faggot.

Well, I know what I'll be doing this weekend,
exercising the blazing flounder!

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Profession item quests are the WORST, never want to see that shit again

Vehicle quests were good, but WotLK put too many in, and they are annoying cause at higher level you cant roflstomp them, they are always the same difficulty, which is really annoying and goes against the MMO philosophy

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

I found all the quests in WOTLK to be really unengaging actually. I think it was because of the quest hub effect, where you hit the hub grab 9 quests, then just scan them for tasks and do them in order of their location. I read almost 0 quests aside from " where do i go, who do i kill".

Zombie Supper, coming soon to a city near you!

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

QuestHelper kindof proliferates the whole skipping quest text, skip to what I need to do part.

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Arador wrote:

QuestHelper kindof proliferates the whole skipping quest text, skip to what I need to do part.

Yep, accept, follow arrow

Sometimes I found myself with the arrow stopping and not knowing what I had to do in this location for some that werent just straight up kill quests (at which point I would skim the text)

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Gotcha wrote:

I found all the quests in WOTLK to be really unengaging actually. I think it was because of the quest hub effect, where you hit the hub grab 9 quests, then just scan them for tasks and do them in order of their location. I read almost 0 quests aside from " where do i go, who do i kill".

Arador wrote:

QuestHelper kindof proliferates the whole skipping quest text, skip to what I need to do part.

Yeah, when quest helper reduces any concept of understanding a story flow to "what does the magical pulsing arrow tell me to kill next" you have an issue.  That's a mantra I want to use when dating, not when gaming.

Maybe I'm a freak in that I actually enjoy understanding the story behind what's going on.

Romothecus: negative, i agree with haus

Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

best new sig ever

Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

nosf wrote:

The better collection quests are for drops off stuff you're already killing for other reasons anyways.

Too bad 90% of the time you end up finishing the other quests first, and end up having to finish off the collection quest with plain old grinding.

Dex wrote:

Profession item quests are the WORST, never want to see that shit again

Vehicle quests were good, but WotLK put too many in, and they are annoying cause at higher level you cant roflstomp them, they are always the same difficulty, which is really annoying and goes against the MMO philosophy

"The MMO philosophy" is full of retarded shit, though.  Going against it is the key to making a less gay MMO.

Last edited by Travesty (03/28/09 10:51 PM)

Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Travesty wrote:
Rorus Raz wrote:

I mean, the biggest failing of quests is that there IS no diversity.  A collection quest only differs from a fucking kill quest in how much you need to kill.  Every quest involves killing shit.  It's the same thing with a shittier package.

Collection quests are almost universally worse than kill quests.  There's RNG bullshit involved, and you end up having to kill more if you do them in a group, unlike kill quests.

Collection quests are worse because they take an indefinite amount of time.  Both have you doing the same thing, gameplay wise:  killing shit with little variation in their attacks and AI.  All mobs daze, block, parry and so on, giving you a generally bland experience.

Narf

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Travesty wrote:

"The MMO philosophy" is full of retarded shit, though.  Going against it is the key to making a less gay MMO.

The point here I was saying was advancing your character makes it more powerful against earlier tasks. This shows how you have "improved"

For all the shit in the MMO Philosophy, this is one part I would definitely want to stay - advancing your character should trivialise earlier tasks

Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

I actually generally liked the solo content that took some skill, like the Blade's Edge demon possession quest.  It wasn't just some crap some catass could power through by being epiced out or the typical "difficulty" added by forcing you to find a group to kill some inflated mob.

I don't think it's changing the MMO philosophy if not 100% of the content is trivialized by gearing/leveling up -- say, like 99% of it.

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

Questhelper is probably going away, anyway - the author is baww'ing because he can't live off the donations he was demanding any more. No more Questhelper, no more Carbonite...whatever will people do?

Oh, and WotLK changed the collection quests: the longer you're killing for the quest, the better the odds the item will drop.

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

The QH thats out there now is enough to get you through LK, so it will only matter for future expansions.  But that will be gay.

Vagmoo the Druid and more fuckin 80s than you can handle bro
http://patchtimer.org/latest-achieve.php
2008 PTO Fantasy Football Overlord

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Re: 9 WoW Quest Design Problems by Jeff Kaplan

he could move to what jonna does. you buy jonnas guide, you get the mod.

Zombie Supper, coming soon to a city near you!